WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

[Tristanian]

I keep hearing the term "customer" over and over again. According to wikipedia :

"A customer, also client, buyer or purchaser is the buyer or user of the paid products of an individual or organization, mostly called the supplier or seller. This is typically through purchasing or renting goods or services."

So, can anyone here tell me how much they have payed for a single addon (and I do NOT mean an OPTIONAL donation but a mandatory payment) they've downloaded themselves, either from here or anywhere else for that matter, especially after Blizzard's refined policy in the matter ? Reality check. Customer ~= User. A user that is not being charged to use something offered for free cannot be treated in any way as a paid customer, nor can he invoke any special rights. Keep that sense of entitlement buried. It holds no water whatsoever and no sensible person is going to take it seriously. All I'm reading in these posts is "QQ we want our updater back, you are the source of all evil on this Earth." This is what it has come down to, then. WAU created a monster. A boss one that cannot be killed too.

Back in the day, WoWAce, the site that most of you claim to support and love so much was operating simply because Kaelten and WOWI were covering its hilarious bandwidth expenses (hello 14 TB traffic simply because of WAU). You may not consider this a problem but bandwidth does not grow on trees and neither does cash.

And to address some more posts in here :

WM is technically not re-distributing anything, since they are not hosting anything (that they don't have permission for) in their own servers. Had that been the case, it would be easy to send them a DMCA takedown notice. Instead, at first, they cleverly chose to ignore addon authors and without asking anyone, hotlink to their files on release sites, via their application. Back in that day, they never even mentioned author names or displayed the link to their actual support pages. I could go on, on how cleverly (by monitoring our discussions) they changed things in their updater so that they seemingly comply with authors wishes but it would be moot. Seems people just won't listen and will opt to vent their frustration here, without even having the slightest idea on what they are talking about. Sad, simply sad.


"Who are the authors writing addons for? Users."

Really now ? You speak for all the authors ? I was under the impression that a lot of us were simply writing addons, primarily for ourselves and maybe a couple of friends that found them semi-useful. The fact that we choose to release them publicly and for free does not imply that users have a *right* to dictate where we want them hosted or from where we want them to be distributed. Feels arrogant aye ? Well, so does an assumption with no basis.

[Neuro]

Originally Posted by SmellyB Like the previous poster says. We understand your position - having someone steal all your bandwidth is irritating. But there is also onus to provide the service customers expect.

"Customers"? What customers? Using addons doesn't make you a customer to WoWInterface. Visiting their site and pushing up their ad hits and generating revenue for them makes you a customer. People using WM to bypass that aren't customers, they are the problem.

Is WM convenient? Of course it is, they don't have to worry about pesky things like bandwidth consumption or server load. They can just take what they want.

[tinyu]

Originally Posted by Neuro "Customers"? What customers? Using addons doesn't make you a customer to WoWInterface. Visiting their site and pushing up their ad hits and generating revenue for them makes you a customer. People using WM to bypass that aren't customers, they are the problem. Is WM convenient? Of course it is, they don't have to worry about pesky things like bandwidth consumption or server load. They can just take what they want.

and they get paid for it from their ads ><

[adlWoW]

Originally Posted by Tridus Ultimately the WM user experience isn't much of a concern for anybody here, since WM users are as I already mentioned NOT customers of WI or Curse. If you don't like that WM isn't working, complain to the WM maintainers that they should start hosting their own downloads instead of putting their users at the mercy of other people.

Actually I spent a lot of time on this site, and often update my mods one at a time based on my "My Favorites" list. But, I also fire up WoWMatrix every other week or so to catch updates on mods that I might have missed. I pick and choose which I want to update, and that's it. I've read a lot of the anti-WoWmatrix sentiment and I did feel a bit guilty about using it. On the other hand, the Vista file copy confirmations drive me crazy - which is the ONLY reason I went looking for a standalone updater in the first place.

You can see the lovely Vista dialog box here:

http://www.stevetrefethen.com/blog/V...ctlyClear.aspx

Anyhow, I'd gladly pay for an updater with WoWMatrix functionality - but only if it encompassed more than one site. Running two programs would be annoying. Maybe when WoWI's app is up and running I'll take a look at it. In the meantime I'll just be updating my mods much less frequently, and probably spending less time here as well. I don't like getting caught in the middle of this whole mess, to be honest. It's left a bad taste in my mouth..

[fewyn]

Originally Posted by Shirik I almost choked on my food reading this. Thanks

Same here.

[SmellyB]

Originally Posted by Zirco So in my neighborhood there have always been these guys who drive around in trucks selling TVs and computers and such. It's really convenient and their prices are great. But just before Christmas I learned that Best Buy hired round-the-clock security guards and suddenly my guys in the trucks stopped coming around. I'm so mad at Best Buy for doing this. What is their problem?! Don't they care about their user base? And to do this right before Christmas no less. If Best Buy doesn't like these guys they should set up a system of trucks that sell stuff for really cheap, too!

At least Best Buy still offers their own in-home delivery. Price aside, the point is that we got used to at least having a truck bring us stuff. Wowinterface says they're still working on trying to figure out how to buy their own trucks.

[Ayanamifan]

Originally Posted by Zirco So in my neighborhood there have always been these guys who drive around in trucks selling TVs and computers and such. It's really convenient and their prices are great. But just before Christmas I learned that Best Buy hired round-the-clock security guards and suddenly my guys in the trucks stopped coming around. I'm so mad at Best Buy for doing this. What is their problem?! Don't they care about their user base? And to do this right before Christmas no less. If Best Buy doesn't like these guys they should set up a system of trucks that sell stuff for really cheap, too!

That might apply if we had to pay for the mods. We don't. They are hosted as a free service. They are free to download.

The point is mute, it was about bandwidth, whats done is done and no one is changing their minds. You've just upset a lot of people and when a better option does come along, they will choose it. It's all it boils down to.

[Vis]

Originally Posted by SmellyB At least Best Buy still offers their own in-home delivery. Price aside, the point is that we got used to at least having a truck bring us stuff. Wowinterface says they're still working on trying to figure out how to buy their own trucks.

It wasn't about the price.....the guys in the truck driving around had STOLEN the goods from Best Buy, hence the reason that they stopped coming around when the Guards got hired. In that scenario, the only one making money off the product in question were the thieves.

[Tridus]

Originally Posted by adlWoW Actually I spent a lot of time on this site, and often update my mods one at a time based on my "My Favorites" list. But, I also fire up WoWMatrix every other week or so to catch updates on mods that I might have missed. I pick and choose which I want to update, and that's it. I've read a lot of the anti-WoWmatrix sentiment and I did feel a bit guilty about using it. On the other hand, the Vista file copy confirmations drive me crazy - which is the ONLY reason I went looking for a standalone updater in the first place. You can see the lovely Vista dialog box here: http://www.stevetrefethen.com/blog/V...ctlyClear.aspx Anyhow, I'd gladly pay for an updater with WoWMatrix functionality - but only if it encompassed more than one site. Running two programs would be annoying. Maybe when WoWI's app is up and running I'll take a look at it. In the meantime I'll just be updating my mods much less frequently, and probably spending less time here as well. I don't like getting caught in the middle of this whole mess, to be honest. It's left a bad taste in my mouth..

Ugh, yeah, that'd get annoying. I have IZArc, so when I download a zip file, I just double click it, hit extract, and thats it (the default directory is usually my addons folder). The popup from that about replacing files is a lot friendlier then the vista one. (Though I rarely do that these days because most of my addons get updated from the Curse Client automatically.)

I mean, I'd love WM as a client if they had a decent backend. They don't have any backend though, and rely on leeching it from others instead. That's just wrong.

If they worked something out somehow that WM became the official client of WI? That'd be pretty sweet.

[SmellyB]

Originally Posted by Neuro "Customers"? What customers? Using addons doesn't make you a customer to WoWInterface. Visiting their site and pushing up their ad hits and generating revenue for them makes you a customer. People using WM to bypass that aren't customers, they are the problem. Is WM convenient? Of course it is, they don't have to worry about pesky things like bandwidth consumption or server load. They can just take what they want.

I think you'll find that many of us visit the page quite regularly, thus making us true "customers" via ad revenue. I know when I need to research a new mod, see the changelog, or read up on something in the forums that I am hit with a faceful of adds and a slow-loading page which is how I repay my usage. I accept that; no use of ad-blockers or any of that. But this is a creature of Wowace's making (which is now Curse) - they are the reason for the concept of the micro-mini-addon and disembedded libraries (which I seriously heart!) So I have a TON of mods and updating by hand simply isn't feasible, no matter what folks say. Maybe they run one addon and nothing else, I don't know. This wasn't an issue until Curse bought Wowace, which caused Wowmatrix to spawn from the loss of the Wowace Updater. Why Curse didn't just co-opt the WAU is beyond me, but that mess caused the current Wowmatrix debacle.

What's funny about this is that Wowinterface and Curse both depend on others (mod writers) for their content. Content that they then attempt to make profit from by serving them up with ad revenue attached

[adlWoW]

Originally Posted by Tridus Ugh, yeah, that'd get annoying. I have IZArc, so when I download a zip file, I just double click it, hit extract, and thats it (the default directory is usually my addons folder). The popup from that about replacing files is a lot friendlier then the vista one. (Though I rarely do that these days because most of my addons get updated from the Curse Client automatically.) I mean, I'd love WM as a client if they had a decent backend. They don't have any backend though, and rely on leeching it from others instead. That's just wrong. If they worked something out somehow that WM became the official client of WI? That'd be pretty sweet.

I usually open the zip rather than save it, and then drag the contents to the Addon folder shortcut on my desktop. This is pretty fast, and it worked great in XP - but not so much in Vista. I guess I can play around with some extractors and see if there is a way to set the default directory to be my addons directory. Otherwise navigating to the addon subdirectory each time would be too time-consuming.

[lycanther]

Originally Posted by SmellyB I think you'll find that many of us visit the page quite regularly, thus making us true "customers" via ad revenue.... So I have a TON of mods and updating by hand simply isn't feasible, no matter what folks say.... What's funny about this is that Wowinterface and Curse both depend on others (mod writers) for their content. Content that they then attempt to make profit from by serving them up with ad revenue attached

Absolutely. WoWInterface and Curse are behaving as if they were the ones who wrote the addons, or as if they were paying the authors for the addons. The reality is that the only software that WoWInterface and Curse have written is their updaters...crap that I removed from my pc as quickly as possible and am not eager to try again any time soon. This whole debacle has actually made me much more inclined to support WoWMatrix than I had before. (I do not use WoWMatrix myself, I use a different updater.)

[w01ph]

Originally Posted by SmellyB What's funny about this is that Wowinterface and Curse both depend on others (mod writers) for their content. Content that they then attempt to make profit from by serving them up with ad revenue attached

sounds a little like WM to me... but in the end for me, it's all about something that works, I don't care about seeing ad banners, I'm even ok with running 2 programs, or even 3, they just need to work, and work simply. 150 mods approx atm... a good many of them found thru WM... I wasn't trying to shaft WI or curse, didn't even think about the ramifications or how WM worked, it was quick and easy. No real setup involved, no selecting of favorites, no signing up for another forum acct that I would likely never use.. run the program, click update, play wow, follow this simple formula for your updater, and it's win imo

[Zyonin]

Originally Posted by SmellyB I think you'll find that many of us visit the page quite regularly, thus making us true "customers" via ad revenue. I know when I need to research a new mod, see the changelog, or read up on something in the forums that I am hit with a faceful of adds and a slow-loading page which is how I repay my usage. I accept that; no use of ad-blockers or any of that. But this is a creature of Wowace's making (which is now Curse) - they are the reason for the concept of the micro-mini-addon and disembedded libraries (which I seriously heart!) So I have a TON of mods and updating by hand simply isn't feasible, no matter what folks say. Maybe they run one addon and nothing else, I don't know. This wasn't an issue until Curse bought Wowace, which caused Wowmatrix to spawn from the loss of the Wowace Updater. Why Curse didn't just co-opt the WAU is beyond me, but that mess caused the current Wowmatrix debacle. What's funny about this is that Wowinterface and Curse both depend on others (mod writers) for their content. Content that they then attempt to make profit from by serving them up with ad revenue attached

Umm, WoWAce and Curse elected to kill WAU because it was eating the sites alive. WAU would move a truckload of data

During 2.4 we broke 880 mbits/second for extend periods of time. Thats about 110MB/s or 386.7GB an hour.

WoWAce/Curse simply could not afford to pay for that bandwidth. WoWAce tried various means such as advertising in WAU, however they just could not make it work. Thus WAU had to die.

Regarding disembedded libraries, these days there is no reason to run External libraries. Maybe if you are a developer (I am, however I run embeds). There only a tiny shred of savings when comes to load times (the only reason for the average user to use externals), there is no change in memory. Sure when you first log-in you may have a spike when comes to memory usage however at the first garbage collection, that memory is reclaimed. Besides memory usage is not a big deal unless you are running WoW on an extremely marginal system.

The only other reason to run externals is when many libraries where beta and older version could clash with newer versions. However those issues have long since been dealt with. Ace3 (the major framework on most people systems), Rock and the like have matured nicely. Newer frameworks like LibDataBroker not even designed to run standalone, they are designed to be embedded in your AddOns.

[Seerah]

Originally Posted by SmellyB What's funny about this is that Wowinterface and Curse both depend on others (mod writers) for their content. Content that they then attempt to make profit from by serving them up with ad revenue attached

We make a profit? Man, if Cairenn and Dolby are rolling around in new Bentlys (hell, even a new Kia), I want a piece of that!

Jokes aside, we do not make a profit. We just recoup our losses. We aren't making money off of authors' backs, we provide a service and a host for them, as well as giving back numerous other benefits, like getting them beta keys. These are all available for free. All we ask is to stay afloat so that we can continue those services. Believe me - if authors thought we were making money off of their backs, they would so be out of here. But I don't see that, do you?


edit: and the Best Buy analogy also had me giggling.

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by w01ph sounds a little like WM to me...

There is a MAJOR difference. WoWI provides a service to addon authors, such as a free website, forum and svn hosting, saving the author a lot of hassle.
Furthermore, as an author, I elect to include my work on WoWI, as opposed to WM which simply steals it. WoWI was even decent enough, to contact me about it when someone else posted my work on this site (before I was using it), and ask if they had done so with my permission (and removed it when I said "no").

[orthwein]

The problem is that for all the well intentioned efforts of WOWI and Curse, they are simply too busy/incompetent/unfocussed enough to provide a decent client experience. Add to this their need to try to restrict everyone to one site only and you have a model that flies directly in the face of what is ideal for users.

Obviously, we can't have what is ideal for users (free everything + one click updating + cross site addon support). So while the site maintainers can claim they're all eager to make users happy, that isn't their end goal, it's to make sure they have a functional business model.

There's nothing wrong with that. The part that annoys me is their unwillingness to let someone else do the work to make the users happy. There is a significant community out there that can write very functional and user-friendly updaters that work cross platform. Why not punt off the hard work of writing a non-retarded updater to them?

I wrote an ace updater for my own personal user (plus fellow guild members) back in the day. It worked flawlessly with the ace repo, and was quite pleasant to use. I wanted to make it work with Curse, and when I spoke to the Curse guys, the response was 'go away, it's our client or nothing, we don't want one click updating, we want to force everyone to click through ads'. Now, that makes sense from a business perspective, but let's not pretend it's in the best interest of users.

Given the lack of resources/skill/willingness to develop useful clients, wouldn't it be better if the site maintainers instead focussed on their piece of the puzzle, the sites themselves? Why not for example allow for a web API to query, download, and update addons? Why not allow such a service for premium customers only? That way I can write an updater and ask them for their curse credentials or API key, and I can tell users that my addon is only useful if they pay up to Curse/WOWI/whoever. I can evolve it at my own rate, as can any number of developers, and we'd all stop being held hostage by the woefully inadequate, highly dysfunctional, and rarely updated Curse client.

I have no interest in 'stealing' from anyone. However, I will also happily steal if you won't give me a good alternative, and I'm sorry but right now the website and curse clients are very far from 'good alternatives'. I would happily download music before from newsgroups, nowadays I check itunes first because I'm happy to support the industry and the application Just Works. The same applies to wow addons.

I for one will be cheering for WM to work around whatever measures you put in place, and would strongly urge you to find some other model such as an API for premium customers, WM (and others) have the option of allowing paying users to access your sites with their excellent client, while blocking the unauthenticated ones who are 'leeching' for free.

[SmellyB]

Originally Posted by Seerah We make a profit? Man, if Cairenn and Dolby are rolling around in new Bentlys (hell, even a new Kia), I want a piece of that!

I said "attempt" But Wowinterface does seem to be a division of a for-profit company (Zam) so that's the assumption we take. And hey, I don't begrudge you guys the chance to make money. Heck, I would love it if we could find a common ground where all of the following could come into line: what addon authors need to develop, that wowi can cover expenses and make some profit, and that the users are happy. Speaking as the "user" here, all I want is a decent updater.

(Incidentally, I looked up the incorporation status of Zam to make sure it wasn't a NPO and it turns out I often walk right past the original incorporation address. Small world!)

[Aequi]

... leaching bandwidth is bad.
Its not only the right thing to do, its the brave thing to do and wow-players around the world will in the long term be better off. Sure, its hurting right now, and WoWi is gonna take the heat for it, maybe some day people will realize you tried to do the right thing.

... Its like the "load out of date addons" option
Blizzard wants to disable it on the live servers, leaving only the ptr for testing. Short term it would hurt, but long term we would be better off... Blizzard just don't have the guts to do it though.

ooh, btw. that WoWi updater your working on?
Plz consider making it a windows service that use the emule p2p network.
Then it can just run in the background checking my favorits though a rss feed and autoupdate my things without me even having to touch a button.
I'd give you an add spot on my desktop for it

Sry thats not helping, i really do agree it was the right move for WoWi and Curse, just wish you had hired a spindoctor for the PR fallout - its not easy to do the right thing.

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by orthwein There's nothing wrong with that. The part that annoys me is their unwillingness to let someone else do the work to make the users happy. There is a significant community out there that can write very functional and user-friendly updaters that work cross platform. Why not punt off the hard work of writing a non-retarded updater to them?

You obviously haven't bothered to read this discussion. As has been stated WoWMatrix refused to work with Curse and WoWI to come up with a mutually benificial solution.

Originally Posted by orthwein I have no interest in 'stealing' from anyone. However, I will also happily steal if you won't give me a good alternative, and I'm sorry but right now the website and curse clients are very far from 'good alternatives'. I would happily download music before from newsgroups, nowadays I check itunes first because I'm happy to support the industry and the application Just Works. The same applies to wow addons.

I won't bother to go into the morality of this statement, as you obviously don't care, but to expect WoWI and Curse (or the record companies) not to try to stop you from stealing from them is simply foolish.