WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

[Adremma]

Serious question:

I'm using a third-party updater (I don't know if it still works, and I'm not home to try it, but let's assume it does work or can be updated to work). When I update (frequently; for the sake of argument, twice a week), it gives me a list of addons that actually updated. For each of those addons, I open up the webpage here or on Curse (generating ad impressions, viewing requests for donations, etc.) because I want to see what actually changed. However, my updater has had to load the page for every addon I have installed to check for updates, without generating ad impressions, etc. for those loads.

Is this behavior you would prefer to prevent or alter? If so, is it possible to fall within what you would consider "acceptable" behavior while still using a third-party updater?

[BattleChicken]

So...wheres the proof of all these accusations? The OP seems to just post a lot of FUD without facts to back it up.

As far as your 'illegally re-distribution of addons': What makes it illegal to re-distribute non-copyrightable, open code? Do both WI and Curse claim copyright on uploaded addons? Are you claiming exclusive control of the distribution of addons? Do you force your users into agreeing that they won't use any other site to distribute their addons other than WI or Curse? This is all very confusing since to me, you're not able to enforce that kind of policy.

The real issue here is not the zomgbandwidth, or the other supposed wrongdoings (please provide proof before defamation to make it valid, otherwise it's slander BTW) its the fact the we're not looking at your advertisements when we use WM. It could also be because WM is far superior to Curse and WI's inferior "applications".

Now, back to the bandwidth issue. If I have six browser windows open and I'm downloading one addon in each window, do I violate your TOS? If I use the DownThemAll addon to get files from your site, am I offending your bandwidth? No, I'm not. I'm fairly certain that the WM application is doing the exact same thing and it's not unlikely that it gets its updates via xml parsing which uses less bandwidth than a web browser. Of course, blocking the useragent is nothing since many applications can mask the UA and throttling can work wonders and does not violate any imaginary Internet law. You could change your TOS (if you haven't already) to disallow third party client access and have fun spending money on lawsuits or you can create a better app and stop being selfish with the (now sore at you) community.

Cheers!

[chris_the_elder]

OK, gotta get back to work. Just one parting note.

It'll be a great day when Blizzard puts together an addon site and updater. Please, blizzard, put something together here, make a summer intern team do it or something. Put these toddlers out of business, they're not serving anyone's interest here but their own.

[fewyn]

Originally Posted by chris_the_elder OK, gotta get back to work. Just one parting note. It'll be a great day when Blizzard puts together an addon site and updater. Please, blizzard, put something together here, make a summer intern team do it or something. Put these toddlers out of business, they're not serving anyone's interest here but their own.

And Blizzard will never have their own site, because then the morons of today would think Blizzard wrote the code and QQ because it doesn't work.

[Evolution85]

Originally Posted by BattleChicken So...wheres the proof of all these accusations? The OP seems to just post a lot of FUD without facts to back it up. As far as your 'illegally re-distribution of addons': What makes it illegal to re-distribute non-copyrightable, open code? Do both WI and Curse claim copyright on uploaded addons? Are you claiming exclusive control of the distribution of addons? Do you force your users into agreeing that they won't use any other site to distribute their addons other than WI or Curse? This is all very confusing since to me, you're not able to enforce that kind of policy. The real issue here is not the zomgbandwidth, or the other supposed wrongdoings (please provide proof before defamation to make it valid, otherwise it's slander BTW) its the fact the we're not looking at your advertisements when we use WM. It could also be because WM is far superior to Curse and WI's inferior "applications". Now, back to the bandwidth issue. If I have six browser windows open and I'm downloading one addon in each window, do I violate your TOS? If I use the DownThemAll addon to get files from your site, am I offending your bandwidth? No, I'm not. I'm fairly certain that the WM application is doing the exact same thing and it's not unlikely that it gets its updates via xml parsing which uses less bandwidth than a web browser. Of course, blocking the useragent is nothing since many applications can mask the UA and throttling can work wonders and does not violate any imaginary Internet law. You could change your TOS (if you haven't already) to disallow third party client access and have fun spending money on lawsuits or you can create a better app and stop being selfish with the (now sore at you) community. Cheers!

Fail troll from WoWMatrix is fail........

Obviously, this has hit you where it hurts.

And I am glad.

[Zordral]

You managed to wield the 'stick' pretty well and you timed it just right so it would generate the most attention. If that was your goal, congrats.

But what about the 'carrot'? Have you left your customers with a legitimate equivalent service? If you want to change your customers' behavior you have to give folks a good, positive, reason to change not just a punishment for doing otherwise. Look at this way, if WM was not something folks wanted would the bandwidth being used even be an issue?

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, it looks like you are punishing people for picking an interface that better suits their needs. It is unfortunate that the better mouse trap in this case invalidates your business model. Perhaps you need to re-think your revenue streams or enter into a partnership.

Were other alternatives investigated other than alienating a large number of your customers? I don't want to see WI or Curse go away but obviously there is a better way to do things.

I sincerely hope that WI and Curse can adapt and keep on going. But what happens if the WM site does start to host their own content and provide hosting facilities for addon authors? Just something to think about.

-Z

[Seerah]

I have given three of you one day vacations from the site already. Several of you are really close to getting a vacation of your own.

I am going to lock this thread for a few minutes while you all read through the forum rules and so that I can actually get a response together to what's been said so far.

Anyone who makes a new thread while this one is locked will be joining the other three on their deserted Caribbean island.


edit: there is a lot to respond to, and I apologize if you think I'm typing too slow. Please be patient and know that I will be finished soon.

[Seerah]

WoWInterface and Curse hate their users!

That is so far from the truth that it makes us shake our heads. Anyone who has been around either of the sites know better. I used to work in retail. If our shrink rates were too high from shoplifting, that meant our store was in big trouble. Anyone who works retail knows that the store cannot recoup losses from shoplifting. The store/company purchase products to place in their store for people to buy. If that stuff is stolen instead, the store cannot get their money back for those items. In order to make up for that their usually have to raise prices or increase security. This doesn't mean that they hate their shoppers. It means that they are trying to protect themselves and keep themselves afloat so that the shoppers can rest assured that their favorite store will still be there tomorrow.

Why did you do this right before the patch?

It wasn't to spite users. See above for that. Anyone that visited our site (or Curse) for the last few patches are aware of the troubles we had in keeping it up. Our datacenter has shut down our servers in the past for wowmatrix looking like a DDOS attack (we didn't shut it down, the datacenter did). That combined with the natural demands on us during a patch day have made our site crash and time out for users. This makes it no fun for users. Why yesterday instead of last week? 1. Because it takes time to put this stuff together. 2. Because if we did it last week, wowmatrix may have hacked their way around our protections (wouldn't be the first time) and we'd have overloaded sites again on patch day. Now, ask yourself which is better? A site that you can get to for your addons or a site that you (even wowmatrix) can't?

Your accusations against WowMatrix are unfounded!

I am sorry, but they are not. Earlier in this thread were 3-4 linked threads about wowmatrix from last fall. If you wish, I could probably dig up 20 more going back to the first day that they started stealing from addon sites and declared that they "wanted a cut of the market". They were met with hostility that day on the wowace forums (about a year and a half ago or so) because they weren't an addon hosting site, they were thieves. They were scraping the wowace repository and rehosting those addons (many of them were outdated versions). Please educate yourself before accusing us of slander.

Why don't you work together with WowMatrix?

We have tried to contact them. Curse has tried to contact them. One day, WM and Curse actually did talk about a possible deal. WowMatrix offered them a mere fraction of the costs they cause Curse in order to keep doing what they were doing. When Curse said, "wait, no - you cause us to spend 20 times that on bandwidth," wowmatrix basically gave them the finger and ignored them again. At this point, we find it morally reprehensible to try to work out a deal with someone that has absolutely no respect for us, Curse, the authors, or the community. All wowmatrix wants is their "cut of the market" - they have *never ever* been a part of the community, tried to work things out respectfully with the addon sites, or been a part of discussions with users/authors.

Having users visit your site will cause more bandwidth than WowMatrix uses.

While it may seem like the truth, it isn't. You vastly underestimate the bandwidth that is consumed moving addons, and the number of users WowMatrix had that were hammering our site, scraping pages. As has been already noted, our data center has shut down our servers on several occasions because they thought we were under DDOS attacks. We were actually just being hammered by WowMatrix users. Curse's bandwidth usage went down by 30% when they cut off WM yesterday, and WoWInterface's went down by 50%. Sure, now those users will be visiting the sites. But the key here is this: NOT in as high of a frequency. And, yes, we'll stil get our ad views and our page impressions. We need those to stay alive. Don't you want us to still be here? Ultimately, our site will still be up and running for you to actually get your addons now. Both on a server load basis and and for the future basis.

Were other alternatives considered before this?

Of course - this isn't the easiest route, you know. Anything we tried to put into place before to limit wowmatrix's usage, they would just hack their way around it. Any time we tried to talk to them, they either ignored us or insulted us. We tried to ignore them for a time, too. But the costs just got too great. We are talking about TERABYTES of data here for bandwidth usage. You can't even imagine the costs that places on websites.

Why do authors care so much? Is this really about them, too?

I am saying all of this as an addon author myself: 95% of all addons were written because the author thought it would be a neat thing for them themselves to have for the game. Probably only about 70-75% of all addons are released to distribution sites. And this is usually only because the author has a sense of pride in what they have accomplished and wish to share it with others in case they might like it too. Many authors don't even care if users use their addons. What the authors *do* care about, though, is feeling like they have some sort of control over their addons and what they create. This is precisely why addons have licenses. Oh - and btw - an addon without a license means that the addon is "all rights reserved". The actual presence of a license is what allows people to do stuff with it. Addons are *not* Open-Source unless a license declares it so. Just because you can read it in NotePad, doesn't mean it's Open-Source. The authors also wish to help take care of the real addon sites that have taken care of them. If wowi and curse go down the drain, we'd be sad authors.

Why didn't you wait until the new WoWI updater was ready?

Believe me, that would have been icing on the cake. Unfortunately, sometimes things in life don't work out the way that you want them to. Life is messy and complicated. Shirik has been so very busy with his school and getting an internship for the summer, he has hardly slept much the past few months - often staying up until early hours of the morning working on his studies or the updater. He just hasn't been able to get it finished yet. The alpha version is very promising and works fairly well, but there are still a few kinks to work out before it is ready for public consumption. But we could not wait on the WowMatrix thing. We wanted the peace of mind that the site would be up and available for users, and that we wouldn't have to call Dolby at all hours of the day or night telling him to restart the server ASAP because it had crashed. We are not exaggerating here. If you did not see the issues during the last few patches, you were lucky and we were fast at catching them. Dolby worked his ass off.

Why don't WoWInterface and Curse work together to create an updater?

While we agree that that would be nice for the users, and in a perfect world, you might see the Curse-WoWI Updater, this is not a perfect world. While we did work together on this (I likened it to the WotLK expansion on the forums), we are still competitors. What I can say is that our new updater will be able to use any modules written for it - even one for Curse if someone writes it.

I am sure that I am forgetting responses to some things, but I have been sitting here at my desk longer than I was supposed to already, and it has been about an hour and you deserve to see my response and to have the thread unlocked again for discussion. I am sorry for having to lock it, and I am sorry for having to temp ban some of you. But sometimes ugly things need to be done. I hope the hour gave a few of you time to cool off as well.

Please, please follow the site rules when replying to this thread and keep things civil and level headed. While we don't ask you to agree with what was done, we do ask you to understand where we were coming from and to respect that. Make use of the favorites on both sites. You can set it up to be emailed if an addon is updated. You won't even have to come looking.

[Zirco]

As an addon author, I'll put in my 2 cents.

WowMatrix is a well executed and well designed program. If they hosted the content that they're distributing I would certainly upload my addon as I do believe they are fulfilling a need. I bet a lot of other addon authors would do the same. I would encourage WowMatrix to start their own hosting service but I'm guessing the reason they don't is because hosting is expensive. Instead they let Curse and WowInterface bear the expense.

So I completely sympathize with Curse and WowInterface and understand why they've taken the steps they have.

A lot of folks have opined that WowMatrix will figure out a way to defeat this new blocking scheme. I know a fair bit about the web and HTTP but I can't say one way or the other. I doubt analogies based on the RIAA are particularly applicable as this is two web sites attempting to block one program - a pretty different situation.

And, of course, if Curse can improve their updater to the point that it is as good as WowMatrix, that would go a long way toward solving the problem. I must say though, that I wonder if Curse's business model would still work if people could routinely update all their mods when only seeing a relatively small number of ads? In other words, if WowMatrix just gave their program to Curse for free, would Curse still see a big decline in ad revenue that could be very problematic for them?

At the end of the day it could turn out that ad revenue isn't enough to support a business that hosts and distributes addons. What would that mean?

[Tridus]

Originally Posted by Zordral You managed to wield the 'stick' pretty well and you timed it just right so it would generate the most attention. If that was your goal, congrats. But what about the 'carrot'? Have you left your customers with a legitimate equivalent service? If you want to change your customers' behavior you have to give folks a good, positive, reason to change not just a punishment for doing otherwise. Look at this way, if WM was not something folks wanted would the bandwidth being used even be an issue? Playing devil's advocate for a moment, it looks like you are punishing people for picking an interface that better suits their needs. It is unfortunate that the better mouse trap in this case invalidates your business model. Perhaps you need to re-think your revenue streams or enter into a partnership. Were other alternatives investigated other than alienating a large number of your customers? I don't want to see WI or Curse go away but obviously there is a better way to do things. I sincerely hope that WI and Curse can adapt and keep on going. But what happens if the WM site does start to host their own content and provide hosting facilities for addon authors? Just something to think about. -Z

The flaw in this argument is that the affected people are NOT their customers. Nobody being impacted is a WI or Curse customer. They're WowMatrix customers (if they can really be called that).

If WM doesn't want their users negatively impacted by these sorts of things, maybe they should host downloads themselves. Problem solved.

Of course they don't do that, since it would cost them money. Having someone else pay the costs so WM can make a profit is a pretty good business model for WM, not so much for everybody else.

I find it pretty sad how many people actually think what WM does is acceptable because the client is good. The fact is WM actually provides half of the necessary service (the client). The other half they're ripping off, and if the backend providers decide to take measures to prevent it, WM users only have one legitimate group to complain at: WM staff for failing to provide a working backend themselves.

[Kallieen]

Good! I'm glad you guys managed to find a way to block them. Having a stable site on Patch Day will be most welcome.

[AstralPally]

Doing this before having your own product ready is underhanded. Wowmatrix was successful because it was 1000x better at what it did than anything the official sites have put out.

Learn from the competition imo. You've really peed in my cheerios and you're making this probably the worst patch day i've experienced in quite some time. It's going to be a pain in the ass to update everything manually... on patch day, by hand, without any warning.

I'll be using wowinterface as long as i'm forced to, and not a second longer. I've been using this network of sites since the early days of EQ1. Very sad you've chosen to alienate your base rather than step up to the plate.

[Ayanamifan]

k, so I registered on this site to comment specifically on this subject. I have little interest in joining yet another 'community'.

I've used WoWMatrix for quite along time. To tell you the truth, I didn't know that it was stealing bandwidth away from these sites. I guess it makes sense if you stop to think about it, but it had never really occured to me.

I use/used WM because it's easy. It's so easy. It checks all your mods, with one button - will update them all, place them where they need to go and I don't have to spend 10 minutes updating the 70 mods or so I have installed, opening tons of zip files, making sure they all get in the right dirrectories. Am I capable of doing so? Yes. But why would I want to spend 10 minutes doing something this program can do for me in 2? If you want to consider this lazy, then that's your own misguided responce. It's just more efficiant. It's like asking why you take a car to work when riding a bike or walking will get you there. I'm not going to get into simantics or anologies (beyond that one), but you've just made this whole thing extremely inconvient.

As far as bandwidth goes, I can see your reasoning behind it and I don't fault anyone voicing that as a concern. However the speal about how no one clicks the adds? I never click adds. I never will. I'm tired of them. So tired of them. I'm tired of them in my face all the time, I'm tired of clicking 'skip add' in the upper right corner, I'm tired of having to sit through an add that expands to the full size of the browser that I have no way of closing until its over. These two sites don't anything near that bad and for that I am grateful, but the fact remains, I will NEVER click on an add. Be it here or in WM or in some other mod managing software. To be quite frank, while I am grateful there is a place to go and get mods easily, I don't feel like I am obligated to keep these sites running. I'm not obligated to click on adds and generate a revenue for you. If you have a free service, then its a free service. If you don't do it, someone else will. There will always be a free place to get mods. I've seen many mod sites come and go. I could care less.

I have no interest in any war going on between a web site and software creators. Zero.

All you've accomplished is a massive inconvience to every person who wanted to just get into the game and play. I'm tired of going to 10 different mod sites because the one I happen to go to, the mod author is no longer visiting.

I've been playing this game since it opened. I've seen countless sites come and go and I am beyond tired of keeping all these mods updated. I'm glad authors have created them and shared them. But from now on I think I will just use the mods I have and disable them as they break. I'm tired of this. WM was easy, it was quick and it was no BS. In and out and I'm playing the game I have little time for. All you're going to acomplish is more people like me. Until you can release a client that comes close to what WM is/was offering, all your going to do is alienate players who have been using WM.

Is there really that big a secret why WM is so big now?

As for authors who are just 'exploring programing' or what other excuse they want to use, then just keep it off the site. I prefer people who see something missing in the game, add it and then share it with everyone else because its part of a hobby they love and want others to benifit from their addition. As with Rendus, I can not fathom why authors care so much about this. If anything WM has brought more people to your mods than these sites would have. I've added a good 15 mods from WM just because they sounded like cool add-ons while I was browsing through their program. Not many were spectacular, but I installed them and tried them. Which was 500 times easier than coming to one of these sites and trying to navigate them. It's more complicated than it should be and you still have crap here from when WoW was first released.

The only way you're going to accomplish that is to force people to pay for a membership to your sites. I'd love to see how long you will stay online adopting that buisness model.

I can tell you one thing though, through my years of playing this game and seeing sites come and go. When the next one does come along - and it will, it is a matter of time only - that allows users to update all of their mods EASILY and without having to download countless files, you will lose users. And very fast. Even some of the crusaders on this forum, I can guarantee it. When things become more trouble than its worth, people will look for alternatives.

This has turned more into a rant and is filled with more aggression than I would have prefered but this has annoyed me to no end. I'm not going to click on any of your adds. I'm not going to click on any of WM adds. I will still be using your bandwidth to get my files, I will just be forced to do it in a why that is extremely inconvienent and serves no other purpose in my eyes other than an attempt to get revenue from me. Which will never happen.

[SmellyB]

Like the previous poster says. We understand your position - having someone steal all your bandwidth is irritating. But there is also onus to provide the service customers expect. In this case, we've had FREE one-click updaters for a long time now (wowace, then wowmatrix) and we don't want to lose that. Purposely cutting the cord is as much a penalty to US as it is to the WM people. You should throttle the WM for now and allow it until you provide a serviceable replacement (one-click updating without a subscription.)

Heed this warning. If you don't do it, someone else will. Free market competition FTW.

[Zirco]

So in my neighborhood there have always been these guys who drive around in trucks selling TVs and computers and such. It's really convenient and their prices are great.

But just before Christmas I learned that Best Buy hired round-the-clock security guards and suddenly my guys in the trucks stopped coming around. I'm so mad at Best Buy for doing this. What is their problem?! Don't they care about their user base? And to do this right before Christmas no less. If Best Buy doesn't like these guys they should set up a system of trucks that sell stuff for really cheap, too!

[Dolby]

I just want to say we appreciate every ones feedback.

A reply to some of the comments I have read about limiting bandwidth. Right now we can't fully detect them at least I haven't been able to figure it out. We are only able to either remove info WM needs or make a download button that would be difficult for a program to use. Wireshark shows they use a random user agent every time they visit along with other things so we really can't detect them. I agree that may be a better solution though.

[Shirik]

Originally Posted by Zirco So in my neighborhood there have always been these guys who drive around in trucks selling TVs and computers and such. It's really convenient and their prices are great. But just before Christmas I learned that Best Buy hired round-the-clock security guards and suddenly my guys in the trucks stopped coming around. I'm so mad at Best Buy for doing this. What is their problem?! Don't they care about their user base? And to do this right before Christmas no less. If Best Buy doesn't like these guys they should set up a system of trucks that sell stuff for really cheap, too!

I almost choked on my food reading this. Thanks

[Tridus]

Originally Posted by SmellyB Like the previous poster says. We understand your position - having someone steal all your bandwidth is irritating. But there is also onus to provide the service customers expect. In this case, we've had FREE one-click updaters for a long time now (wowace, then wowmatrix) and we don't want to lose that. Purposely cutting the cord is as much a penalty to US as it is to the WM people. You should throttle the WM for now and allow it until you provide a serviceable replacement (one-click updating without a subscription.) Heed this warning. If you don't do it, someone else will. Free market competition FTW.

Doesn't the Curse Client already do that? Update All Mods is an option, and I don't think that requires a subscription. (The subscription makes it just do it fully automated, as in zero-click updates. I haven't actually hit the update button in quite a while, it just does it on its own.)

Ultimately the WM user experience isn't much of a concern for anybody here, since WM users are as I already mentioned NOT customers of WI or Curse. If you don't like that WM isn't working, complain to the WM maintainers that they should start hosting their own downloads instead of putting their users at the mercy of other people.

It's up to WM to provide their customers with a good user experience. It's not up to WI to do it for them. Expecting WI to feel any sympathy for another program that costs them money is pretty insane.

[tinyu]

We at Incgamers completely agree with and fully support the measures that WoWInterface and Curse have gone to to stop WM.

Each month all sites have to cover their bandwidth costs and bandwidth leeching is a highly unsavoury practice.

Matrix is not the first tool to use the leach method and it's a shame for everyone who enjoyed the tool to see it being rendered useless.

However, for the UI community to thrive it needs the support of the UI websites and for that to continue costs have to be met each month.

[Vyper]

Some points I feel worth expressing.

If WoWMatrix hosted the addons themselves, this entire thing would be a non-issue. I would host addons with them, as I'm sure many others would. They however are NOT.

Instead they expect WoWI and Curse to host the files for them. As has already been expressed, this adds up to terabytes of data. Anyone here want to pay to host that kind of bandwidth? We're talking thousands of dollars monthly for that kind of bandwidth.

Meanwhile, people talk as though they are entitled to "an easy one-click updater". You are not. You are entitled to use WoWIs page according to their terms of use. If they choose to disallow it's use with the WoWMatrix client that is their descision and thier right.

What it all comes down to: